RE: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Some thoughts on "Data Aggregations" terminology & concepts

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12 Apr 2016

Ulrich –
Many thanks for this clear explanation. I also enjoy this type of discussion. I have a few points:
You said:
Alternatively we also can say, we omit the possibility of correctness proves and use artificial intelligence. In this case we can just use language and, if really wanted, ontologies.
In fact using knowledge engineering does not necessarily preclude formality (after all logic is a branch of mathematics) so I believe we can have the best of both worlds: the formality and precision of formal mathematics and the richness of declared semantics within a formal syntax.
You said
May suggestion would be to change the definition to: A collection is +++referenced by+++ a PID pointing to a digital object consisting of a set/list of PIDs/Ids and a set of additional pointers/links and metadata together with each PID/Id.
I think we have to be very clear on the difference between an identifier (PID) and a navigation. For me a PID is an identifier. I do get annoyed by W3C people who insist a URL (named URI) is an identifier when in fact it is a navigation path (or address if you like).
You said:
I understand this as a statement about possible counterexamples,……
It was meant purely to indicate that in collections we have to deal with richer structures (syntax) than hierarchies and that not all nodes are reachable by simple recursion. However, this is not less formal than your original case.
You said:
'give me all vertices and edges connected to one of its vertices'.
With the added semantics I suggested on the edges this can become a query –for example ‘only those vertices connected by an edge with role ‘is part of’ and temporal duration between 20160101 and 20160331’
All this has been implemented in Europe with CERIF (Common European Research Information Format – an EU Recommendation to member states) see http://www.eurocris.org/cerif/main-features-cerif and its dependent tree of information for details. Although the data model is represented in extended entity-relation notation it can be implemented in just about any paradigm (logic programming, object-oriented….)
Best
Keith
Keith G Jeffery Consultants
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From: uschwar1=***@***.***-groups.org [mailto:***@***.***-groups.org] On Behalf Of uschwar1
Sent: 12 April 2016 10:01
To: Gary Berg-Cross; Research Data Collections WG; Data Foundations and Terminology IG; Data Fabric IG
Cc: Jeremy York; TobiasWeigel; ThomasZastrow
Subject: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Some thoughts on "Data Aggregations" terminology & concepts
Hi Gary, all,
I agree with Thomas: this now tends to become a more and more philosophical debate - I like this, and we should continue this perhaps with a beer in Denver. But to shorten the decisions process here let me assume that an undoubted goal is to setup the foundations to build automated processes on collections and try to bring it down to a simple question:
Do we want to be able to prove the correctness of processes on collections or not. If this is case, we need a mathematical solid definition of the object we are working on. I'm not saying, that we have to prove correctness for all processes, btw., that's not common practice in computer science anyway.
Alternatively we also can say, we omit the possibility of correctness proves and use artificial intelligence. In this case we can just use language and, if really wanted, ontologies.
The obvious resulting question in this case is, how and why AI processes would need a concept of collection. I suppose, these processes would not reflect on collections but just use the links inside collections in an unstructured, recursive way, just as a crawler would work. A concept of collections becomes unnecessary for such processes, they just work.
But to understand, how they work brings us back to the foundations of automated processes on collections and the correctness proves of our understanding. That's why I think we should rely on sound definitions.
To Juha and Keith (1.):
we are still talking about whether we use PID or ID or both inside collections. The mayor point is, that we want to formalize the references as the mayor structural element of collections.
The phrase "But saying that a collection is a PID is a bit like saying that a book is an ISBN." is great and shows, what is irritating here, even if it makes sense from a mathematical viewpoint.
May suggestion would be to change the definition to: A collection is +++referenced by+++ a PID pointing to a digital object consisting of a set/list of PIDs/Ids and a set of additional pointers/links and metadata together with each PID/Id.
Juha's phrase then becomes: "But saying that a collection is referenced by a PID is a bit like saying that a book is referenced by an ISBN." which sounds reasonable for me.
To Keith (2.):
it should be possible to express relationships between any collections (or any DO) whether hierarchic (‘belongs to’/is part of’) or in a fully connected graph where it may be that one collection is a proper subset of another (or superset of >1 other collections) or that collection A was derived from Collection B by process X or that collection C was derived from collection D with process U and from collection E with process W - and all with appropriate date/time stamping so that provenance is recorded (and all associated descriptive / contextual / actionable metadata).
I understand this as a statement about possible counterexamples, but actually it is a great 'collection' of test cases, where one can see the possiblities of the given definition:
The fully connected graph is a resulting description of collections seen as vertices with (directed) edges given by the PIDs/Ids inside each of the collections. The fully connected graph therefore is a collection given by the process 'give me all vertices and edges connected to one of its vertices'. Proper subsets of collections are in the scope of the definition as well. And that collection A could be derived from Collection B by process X, was something I said before anyway. Date/time stamping and provenance for collections is on the roadmap of the collections WG too. So from my point of view at least this all fits quite well.
Am 12.04.2016 um 00:12 schrieb Gary Berg-Cross:
Ulrich
In response to your reductive assumption in:
Ulrich –
Many thanks for this clear explanation. I also enjoy this type of discussion. I have a few points:
You said:
Alternatively we also can say, we omit the possibility of correctness proves and use artificial intelligence. In this case we can just use language and, if really wanted, ontologies.
In fact using knowledge engineering does not necessarily preclude formality (after all logic is a branch of mathematics) so I believe we can have the best of both worlds: the formality and precision of formal mathematics and the richness of declared semantics within a formal syntax.
You said
May suggestion would be to change the definition to: A collection is +++referenced by+++ a PID pointing to a digital object consisting of a set/list of PIDs/Ids and a set of additional pointers/links and metadata together with each PID/Id.
I think we have to be very clear on the difference between an identifier (PID) and a navigation. For me a PID is an identifier. I do get annoyed by W3C people who insist a URL (named URI) is an identifier when in fact it is a navigation path (or address if you like).
You said:
I understand this as a statement about possible counterexamples,……
It was meant purely to indicate that in collections we have to deal with richer structures (syntax) than hierarchies and that not all nodes are reachable by simple recursion. However, this is not less formal than your original case.
You said:
'give me all vertices and edges connected to one of its vertices'.
With the added semantics I suggested on the edges this can become a query –for example ‘only those vertices connected by an edge with role ‘is part of’ and temporal duration between 20160101 and 20160331’
All this has been implemented in Europe with CERIF (Common European Research Information Format – an EU Recommendation to member states) see http://www.eurocris.org/cerif/main-features-cerif and its dependent tree of information for details. Although the data model is represented in extended entity-relation notation it can be implemented in just about any paradigm (logic programming, object-oriented….)
Best
Keith
Keith G Jeffery Consultants
Prof Keith G Jeffery
E: ***@***.***
T: +44 7768 446088
S: keithgjeffery
Past President ERCIM www.ercim.eu (***@***.***)
Past President euroCRIS www.eurocris.org
Past Vice President VLDB www.vldb.org
Fellow (CITP, CEng) BCS www.bcs.org
Co-chair RDA MIG https://rd-alliance.org/internal-groups/metadata-ig.html
Co-chair RDA MSDWG https://rd-alliance.org/working-groups/metadata-standards-directory-work...
Co-chair RDA DICIG https://rd-alliance.org/internal-groups/data-context-ig.html
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From: uschwar1=***@***.***-groups.org [mailto:***@***.***-groups.org] On Behalf Of uschwar1
Sent: 12 April 2016 10:01
To: Gary Berg-Cross; Research Data Collections WG; Data Foundations and Terminology IG; Data Fabric IG
Cc: Jeremy York; TobiasWeigel; ThomasZastrow
Subject: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Some thoughts on "Data Aggregations" terminology & concepts
Hi Gary, all,
I agree with Thomas: this now tends to become a more and more philosophical debate - I like this, and we should continue this perhaps with a beer in Denver. But to shorten the decisions process here let me assume that an undoubted goal is to setup the foundations to build automated processes on collections and try to bring it down to a simple question:
Do we want to be able to prove the correctness of processes on collections or not. If this is case, we need a mathematical solid definition of the object we are working on. I'm not saying, that we have to prove correctness for all processes, btw., that's not common practice in computer science anyway.
Alternatively we also can say, we omit the possibility of correctness proves and use artificial intelligence. In this case we can just use language and, if really wanted, ontologies.
The obvious resulting question in this case is, how and why AI processes would need a concept of collection. I suppose, these processes would not reflect on collections but just use the links inside collections in an unstructured, recursive way, just as a crawler would work. A concept of collections becomes unnecessary for such processes, they just work.
But to understand, how they work brings us back to the foundations of automated processes on collections and the correctness proves of our understanding. That's why I think we should rely on sound definitions.
To Juha and Keith (1.):
we are still talking about whether we use PID or ID or both inside collections. The mayor point is, that we want to formalize the references as the mayor structural element of collections.
The phrase "But saying that a collection is a PID is a bit like saying that a book is an ISBN." is great and shows, what is irritating here, even if it makes sense from a mathematical viewpoint.
May suggestion would be to change the definition to: A collection is +++referenced by+++ a PID pointing to a digital object consisting of a set/list of PIDs/Ids and a set of additional pointers/links and metadata together with each PID/Id.
Juha's phrase then becomes: "But saying that a collection is referenced by a PID is a bit like saying that a book is referenced by an ISBN." which sounds reasonable for me.
To Keith (2.):
it should be possible to express relationships between any collections (or any DO) whether hierarchic (‘belongs to’/is part of’) or in a fully connected graph where it may be that one collection is a proper subset of another (or superset of >1 other collections) or that collection A was derived from Collection B by process X or that collection C was derived from collection D with process U and from collection E with process W - and all with appropriate date/time stamping so that provenance is recorded (and all associated descriptive / contextual / actionable metadata).
I understand this as a statement about possible counterexamples, but actually it is a great 'collection' of test cases, where one can see the possiblities of the given definition:
The fully connected graph is a resulting description of collections seen as vertices with (directed) edges given by the PIDs/Ids inside each of the collections. The fully connected graph therefore is a collection given by the process 'give me all vertices and edges connected to one of its vertices'. Proper subsets of collections are in the scope of the definition as well. And that collection A could be derived from Collection B by process X, was something I said before anyway. Date/time stamping and provenance for collections is on the roadmap of the collections WG too. So from my point of view at least this all fits quite well.
Am 12.04.2016 um 00:12 schrieb Gary Berg-Cross:
Ulrich
In response to your reductive assumption in:
>To Gary: of course a collection is something different to an ordinary PID also in my reductionist approach. It is a PID, that points to a very special kind of DO. My assumption is, that this is sufficient for all underlying "substance". But this of course still has to be proven. But perhaps the examples I mentioned already give a feeling of the possibilities, that such a definition can have.
PID doesn't seem to be the substrate even if it can be formalized nearly and recursed. Behind a PID idea is that of Identity, but even this doesn't seem like a basis for build up a Collection concept. Data collections pre-existed digital data and thus PID as a practical example.
I am more in the camp of ontologists like John Sowa who see ontological concepts as the material which logical operators are used to express concepts.
"Pure logic is ontologically neutral. It makes no presuppositions about what exists or may exist in any domain or any language for talking about the domain. To represent knowledge about a specific domain, it must be supplemented with an ontology that defines the categories of things in that domain and the terms that people use to talk about them. The ontology defines the words of a natural language, the predicates of predicate calculus, the concept and relation types of conceptual graphs, the classes of an object-oriented language, or the tables and fields of a relational database." from "Ontology, Metadata, and Semiotics" John F. Sowa
So as a basis of Collection, if you want to find an atom for the molecule of Collection it might be the idea of "and" or "partOf" which produces aggregations & wholes. But there are just some many ways of building larger structures from smaller ones and this is sub-part of ontology called Mereology.
So to me we can't start with mathematical and logical terms and expect to build a world unless we use concepts with terms from that world.
Again to quote Sowa on this language effort:
"No ontology, formal or informal, is independent of the vocabulary and the methodologies (i.e., language games) used to analyze the data. Natural language terms have been the starting point for every ontology from Aristotle to the present. Even the most abstract ontologies of mathematics and science are analyzed, debated, explained, and taught in natural languages. For computer applications, the users who enter data and choose options on menus, think in the words of the NL vocabulary. Any options that cannot be explained in words the users understand are open invitations to mistakes, confusions, and system vulnerabilities. Therefore, every ontology that has any practical application must have a mapping, direct or indirect, to and from natural languages. " (from John Sowa's "The Role of Logic and Ontology In Language and Reasoning."
Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.
***@***.***

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On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:50 PM, uschwar1 <***@***.***> wrote:
Dear Jeremy, all
here, as far as I can see from a first look, the definition is relying on the binary predicate isGatheredInto(x,y), which I couldn't find to be defined at the given location anymore. So one probably cannot use this as a definition here, without defining how this predicate function works in all cases.
But the other way around: if one uses my reductionist definition, the function isGatheredInto(x,y) is almost trivially to define, because one just looks, whether PID y is contained in the set of PIDs in the DO where PID x points to.
To Gary: of course a collection is something different to an ordinary PID also in my reductionist approach. It is a PID, that points to a very special kind of DO. My assumption is, that this is sufficient for all underlying "substance". But this of course still has to be proven. But perhaps the examples I mentioned already give a feeling of the possibilities, that such a definition can have.
And certainly we need to discuss counter examples, to see what the limitations are.
Am 11.04.2016 um 18:24 schrieb Jeremy York:
I don't know if this will contribute to the discussion but I wanted to point to work being done with HathiTrust at the University of Illinois to define collections in a digital humanities context: http://doi.org/10.5334/johd.3.
Jeremy
Jeremy York
Project Manager
The Stewardship Gap
http://bit.ly/stewardshipgap
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:13 PM, TobiasWeigel <***@***.***> wrote:
Hello Ulrich,
thank you for the examples - I particularly like the power collection idea as it could solve very aesthetically some of the issues we get into once we talk about collections that grow over time but yet should be somewhat statically referable. I think this also has a new twist on the API: A rule-based collection might need its own dedicated querying and creation mechanisms (or at least different parameter sets). When thinking in terms of collection models, I mostly worked along lines of common ADTs and multiple membership in several collections. The 'family' of rule-based collections may be a distinct sister branch to these. Thanks a lot for sharing these early examples - I clearly have to look deeper into the mathematical view when continuing down the models path.
Best, Tobias
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [rda-datafabric-ig][rda-collection-wg] Some thoughts on "Data Aggregations" terminology & concepts
From: Ulrich Schwardmann <***@***.***>
To: TobiasWeigel <***@***.***>, ThomasZastrow
<***@***.***>, Gary <***@***.***>, Data Fabric IG <***@***.***-groups.org>, RDA Collections WG <***@***.***-groups.org>
Date: 11 Apr 2016, 16:19
Hi Tobias, Gary and others,
in principle each function, that generates (new) collections, could be used. For example from a given collection one could build a new collection by requiring restrictions like for example time constraints on the generation of the DOs it contains. Or one can build a kind of power collection, the collection of all sub collections.
Particularly interesting generation rules come with the possibity of following the links given in the collection, either by the PIDs in the collection itsself or by the additional pointers/links given in the definition. For example if one has a set of collections consisting each of lets say two PIDs pointing to another collection in this set, then one can see this as such a set, but also one can build the sub collections build by the connected components in the graph with PID vertices and edges defined by the relation 'PID in a collection'.
A real world example would be 'references in publications': each publication (collection) only contains a small number of references (PIDs), but for a given publication there is a whole tree of all publications, that this publication relies on, which is a new collection.
Even more interesting is also the reverse generation rule: give me all publications, that rely on a given publication. It is a valid rule too, but its much harder to implement it, because one needs for each publication to know all reliying publications, or all publications at all.
Similarly new collections can be build from the additional pointers that are possible for a collection according the definition below. A typical example for such a pointer could be the previous version of a collection and one can build easily the collection of all previous versions of a collection by the rule to follow always the previous version pointer.
Am 11.04.2016 um 14:30 schrieb TobiasWeigel:
Hi Ulrich, Gary,
I think this is a very timely and much needed discussion. I like Ulrich's idea to boil this down to the mathematical definitions because I also agree that this reduces the ambiguity and there are some well-known concepts we can reuse. At least at this abstract level, we then won't have to define e.g. a Digital Object in all its meaning at first.
Ulrich - can you give an example for a generation rule? I think I get the direction in which you are heading, but I am not sure I understand the variety of possibilities you hint at.
I am not so sure that collection implementation will mostly be lists - there is a clear advantage in terms of computational efficiency in using unordered sets (distributed hash maps, NoSQL storage and so on). In my mind, both set and list implementations are valid choices with trade-offs depending on a concrete use case.
Best, Tobias
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [rda-datafabric-ig] Some thoughts on "Data Aggregations" terminology & concepts
From: uschwar1 <***@***.***>
To: ThomasZastrow
<***@***.***>, Gary <***@***.***>, Data Fabric IG <***@***.***-groups.org>
Date: 11 Apr 2016, 11:12
Dear Gary, all,
as Thomas already mentioned, in the last VC of the Collections WG we saw the necessity to have a relatively rigid and precice definition of what a digital collection should be in the sense of that WG. This definition is still under discussion and currently given as the fourth of currently three such definitions at
http://smw-rda.esc.rzg.mpg.de/index.php/Collection
and the one in the DFT WG snapshot document. The current definition of the collection WG is:
(
Definition
A collection is a PID pointing to a digital object consisting of a set/list of PIDs/Ids and a set of additional pointers/links and metadata together with each PID/Id.
A collection can be given explicitely by naming each PIDs/Id directly as well as implicitly by a generating rule.
By definition a collection can contain other "sub-"collections.
A collection is called finite, if the set of PIDs/Ids, generated by iteratively resolving its "sub-"collections, is finite.
)
which is relatively abstract, tries to use mathematical terms like sets or lists or simple constructions like PIDs and pointers and avoids to rely on other relatively undefined terms like aggregations and DEs.
A DO is complicated enough and therefore under discussion to be avoided as well, but currently without a good alternative.
The reason for such an attempt was, that we were discussing several concepts, like data streams, that are used and need to be referenced, but that permanently collect additional data in time, causing the necessity to get the versioning under control for such references. The idea of the collection WG is to pave the way for automated services on collections. With such a definition as above we are much better able handle different representations of such a use case and to classify them.
From my point of view especially the use of the generating rules allows a huge amount of possibilities. And the definition of a finite collection is an important restriction here, as this way one is able to create collections by generating rules but avoids the mathematical (set theoretical) problems that can be caused this way.
The definition above is still not terminal in the sense, that we are still discussing the alternatives given by the slashes '/'. For example there are good reasons to see a collection as an unordered 'set' in an abstract sense, but in most implementations it usually will be a list (where the ordering might play an ex- or implicite role), and therefore we have to handle this possibility anyway.
From my point of view the idea from Reagan is interesting, as it provides with the communities needs an additional aspect of collections, and one can mention something like that additionally. But again the terms arrangement etc. are too far from being well defined, such that they cannot be used to create automated services on them.
Am 11.04.2016 um 10:11 schrieb ThomasZastrow:
Hi Gary,
The Research Data Collection group also started to do some work regarding the definition of basic terms like "collections". Fortunately, the TeD-T tool supports multiple definitions and scopes.
Our final definition will be more narrow, but in our group we need to come to a concrete specification / implementation:
http://smw-rda.esc.rzg.mpg.de/index.php/Collection
(Using the scope "BOF PID Collection")
Best,
Tom
Am 10.04.2016 um 17:36 schrieb Gary:
The various types of data aggregation and what we call them has been a topic in several RDA groups. "Data set/dataset" or "Digital Collection" and "data series" are a few of the frequently used terms. In the DFT WG snapshot document we had an initial definition of "Digital Collection" as:
A digital collection is an aggregation which contains DOs and DEs. The collection is identified by a PID and described by metadata.
Note: A digital collection is a (complex) DO.
Note: A digital collection is an aggregation in so far as there are other types of aggregations.
There was probably too little discussion of this and related concepts and so I have tried to continue the conversation with relevant people and groups.
A recent was with Reagan Moore who provided some ideas (perhaps from a policy point of view) as below. I thought that it might serve as a basis for more conversation.
1. Reagan "Digital collections implement arrangement by a community for organizing their digital entities."
Gary comment - this makes the point that aggregations serve community needs and thus will vary. There may then not be external labels for all of these types of arrangements. Maybe the best we can do is to have some broad categories into which different types of arrangements fit.
2 Reagan "Data series is used by NARA to define the sequence of records archived by a federal agency under a submission agreement control."
Gary comment - I like this as a way of grounding ourseleves in a authoritive source, the NARA, as a basis of data series. They merely add a time dimension to files and digital sets. But does this work for everyone and if not how would their definition different from NARA's? See http://smw-rda.esc.rzg.mpg.de/index.php/Dataset_series for our attempt as part of DFT WG.
3. Reagan "A data series is also used to denote the sequence of data received from a sensor."
Gary discussion - This introduces a more specific type of data series - a "sensor-based data series."
4. Regan "A data set nominally identifies a discrete set of digital entities."
Gary comment -We might need to explain that arrangement basis for the "discrete set." Not how many alternate idea on dataset we had when discussing this
in DFT WG see http://smw-rda.esc.rzg.mpg.de/index.php/Data_Set
5. Regan "A data stream denotes the sequence of data received from a sensor."
Gary comment - We did no have the sensor as source in our working defintion but this was perhaps included or implied in the context of messaging. see http://smw-rda.esc.rzg.mpg.de/index.php/Data_Stream
Comments on the above idea would be appreciated.
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Deutsches Klimarechenzentrum GmbH (DKRZ)
Bundesstraße 45 a • 20146 Hamburg • Germany
Phone: +49 40 460094-104
Email: ***@***.***
URL: http://www.dkrz.de
ORCID: orcid.org/0000-0002-4040-0215
Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Thomas Ludwig
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 39784
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Mit freundlichem Gruss
Ulrich Schwardmann
Phone:+49-551-201-1542 Email:***@***.*** _____ _____ ___
Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche / __\ \ / / \ / __|
Datenverarbeitung mbH Goettingen (GWDG) | (_--\ \/\/ /| |) | (_--
Am Fassberg 11 D-37077 Goettingen Germany \___| \_/\_/ |___/ \___|
URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: ***@***.***
Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Prof. Dr. Ramin Yahyapour
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Dipl.-Kfm. Markus Hoppe
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Goettingen Registergericht: Goettingen
Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 Zertifiziert nach ISO 9001
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Mit freundlichem Gruss
Ulrich Schwardmann
Phone:+49-551-201-1542 Email:***@***.*** _____ _____ ___
Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche / __\ \ / / \ / __|
Datenverarbeitung mbH Goettingen (GWDG) | (_--\ \/\/ /| |) | (_--
Am Fassberg 11 D-37077 Goettingen Germany \___| \_/\_/ |___/ \___|
URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: ***@***.***
Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Prof. Dr. Ramin Yahyapour
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Dipl.-Kfm. Markus Hoppe
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Goettingen Registergericht: Goettingen
Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 Zertifiziert nach ISO 9001